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August 20, 2003

I'm always interested when someone lands on an old post and comments. In response to this Godbabble post from January, Doug comments and writes,

As a scientist/logician (computer guy), artist (music, specifically jazz), and believer (very liberal Christian), I'd like to ask what you think of faith as an act, or decision."

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I admire genuine conviction, because there is so much behavior in this world that is rooted in cynicism and nihilism. On the other hand, I am troubled by conviction that too often lends itself to dogmatism and irrational certainty.

Spiritual faith represents a kind of personal certainty coupled with a dual epistemological stance; that is, one chooses to believe, but very often the "bar" for what constitutes sufficient evidence for that belief is lowered. For example, as a computer guy Doug is probably familiar with the workings of hardware and software, which follow definite rules no matter how erratic their behavior might seem. If there is a system problem, there is a logical solution to it, and the problem can be solved by using machine-like reasoning. But that same level of logical rigor cannot easily be applied to the certainties of faith. So, in one instance, he believes what he believes about computers because they are explicable and knowledge about their workings is readily obtained. In the other instance, he believes what he believes about God, but uses a different, "good enough" standard of proof.

Throughout what we know of the history of thought, there have been those who have insisted that there is no dual epistemology, and that the same certainty which is realized in mathematics, for example, can be found in matters of faith. Right now I'm reading Peter Brown's excellent biography of Augustine, so that African bishop springs to mind. His genius was a dialectical ability to logically and mercilessly eliminate all positions counter to his own interpretations of scripture and matters of theology, so that his opponents were left unable to reply.

However, his basic premise--that God exists--is what, today, derails all "logical" attempts to derive faith. Pointing out the logical flaws in proofs of God's existence is the simplest of piscine barrel-shoots, which is why I am singularly unimpressed by the obsessive mockery of the Raving Atheist and others like him. Add to that the fact that our modern age is decidedly lacking in religious minds of Augustine's caliber, and you end up with a pointless landscape of arguments and counter-arguments, all proclaiming certain knowledge about that which, ultimately, cannot be known.

Unfortunately, despite the scientific society we live in--wherein all things are deemed knowable given enough technology, study and funding--we have neglected to build a foundation in metaphysics within the educational system.* A dictionary definition is simply

The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value.

This is not to say that the educational system should purvey a particular brand of metaphysics, such as, "God exists" or "The universe began when a molecular monoblock exploded." But there should be basic instruction in metaphysics as the starting place of all inquiry. Because of the current lack of such instruction, there are people who argue with great force and fervor for the certainty of--for example--an atheistic metaphysical position, while operating on first principles that are either entirely unexamined or just as speculative as theistic metaphysics. I'm not claiming that this disproves any given position, but it does mean that such arguments hover somewhere above these first principles, spotted with detached assertions about the factual nature of empirical scientific method and counter-assertions about the nature of creation and free will. However, without a specific argument about the establishment of a common first principle between interlocuters--whether it's "verifiably true" or not--any such discussion is an exercise in intellectual masturbation. This is why Augustine was the giant that he was: he argued within an intellectual community composed of people who had all agreed on a first premise, namely, that God exists. Everything else was an exploration of the implications of that premise, and what it meant to humanity.

Granted, Augustine did have an argument for the existence of God, which necessarily entailed another first principle, namely, "I exist" (Descartes did not come up with cogito, ergo sum). To derive the existence of God from one's own existence, from a logical standpoint, is sketchy at best. But the effort must be made--not to prove the existence of God, but to rationally examine what one considers to be one's own first principle, and to see what one can satisfactorily derive from that principle. Arguing with people who either haven't examined their own first principles or who emphatically deny yours is pointless, and only serves some need of personal psychology.

For my own part, one of my primary principles is roughly equivalent to "We won't know 'till we get there...or, not." I find it useless to argue in earnest about life after death or the existence of God because, in the absence of any experience to the contrary, there can be no certainty for me. Now, there are plenty of people who believe that they have had such experience, and that's fine. But trying to force that experience into a logical mode and claim it as proof or Truth is a kind of solipsism which conflates personal experience with reality itself.

I'm certainly not making an argument for relativism. Far from it. There's a church near my home that has a sign out front, with a different message every other week or so. This week it's "You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own truth." I agree with that--but I don't think that the church knows what the truth is. There is an objective reality. I just don't believe that we, as humans, are any more equipped to discover it than we are to see infrared light or radio waves.

Which returns me, in a roundabout way, to the admirability of faith. I will respect certain kinds of faith when I can see that the mind behind the belief has engaged in some kind of serious metaphysical deliberation. That it has most carefully parsed itself, and tried to establish a belief structure based on examined first principles. This is why I can respect the current Pope, while remaining almost entirely opposed to his social teachings: I can see through his philosophical writings that he is an intellect to be reckoned with. Conversely, this is why I have contempt for Jerry Falwell: he's a dogmatic yahoo idiot. Falwell and the Pope are both believers. It is the quality of their faith that differentiates them.

I have the most respect for the person of faith who is doing the intellectual work, yet still admits to significant metaphysical uncertainty and vast reservoirs of doubt--because, of course, that is the person who most resembles me, and we all like to like ourselves, don't we? I respect that person because, in addition to wanting to like others who resemble us, we humans desire certainty. Uncertainty and doubt are very uncomfortable and most of us, if we cannot actually achieve certainty, will simply live our lives as though we have done so. But the person of faith who knows that he or she might be completely wrong, who knows that they have not accepted a proof but have made a choice to follow the ethical tenets of that faith...I find a certain integrity there. It's an anxious, difficult path to walk.

*[By which I mean the public education system.--IAW]



What you’ve said presupposes that you have the ability to discern the evidence of God’s existence. It presupposes that a God with more brainpower than you WANTS to be discerned and has not hidden Himself (the Bible does speak of a God who actively blinds unbelievers to His existence and His nature in Romans 11:7 and 2 Corinthians 3:14). Maybe God wants you to go to hell and is actively preventing you from believing.

Could be. Who knows? Not you or I; that much is certain.

Doesn't seem very sporting of God though, does it?

I was just writing about this sort of thing, the idea, that ‘You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own truth’.

It seems that, once someone decides that they know they absolute truth, they stop deliberating, they stop questioning, they let their brain muscles atrophy. This tendency to look for absolutes, and then to consider the question to be settled forever may be responsible for conditions like fundamentalism and Alzheimer's . This is certainly true in Falwell’s case.

Wow. Kind of a thrill that my post was worth a front page spread.

I wrote a response on Mary's link.

http://www.whataretheysaying.org/archives/000465.html

The gist of it is that we are guilty of applying humanism and religion absolutely. Truth be told, part of my faith is that people should grow to their full potential. If a religious belief is holding them back, then maybe that religious belief should be questioned. Same for those who are hell-bent on relativism.

That absolutism, that complacency, is both lazy and insecure. It takes strength to question one's own beliefs. The best scientists, philosophers, and theologians share that trait of self-examination. It is held in psychiatry that those who only see problems in themselves are easier to treat than those who only see problems in others.

I doubt myself, therefore I can grow.

This is a nice thread, and I always like to see people ratcheting out the big questions. I have a couple of thoughts about this post, which shall lay out in random order.

1) I actually did receive some training in metaphysics in college. Don't ask me how - I got lucky, I guess. My professors were all about teaching us to construct arguments and write essays, and they liked it when we got excited about trying to figure out the nature of things. Again, I got lucky.

2) I agree with much of this idea, especially the general underlying premise that it's vitally important to spend time getting to know what you think about reality.

3) I will never accept the argument that faith should be arrived at by mental exercise. My personal experience is that one gets smacked over the head with it. Or smacked over the heart with it. Neither is quite the correct description. I just don't think that's where it comes from, and I've met several people who were earnestly seeking it with their brains, and I wondered if that was perhaps why it didn't come. I think it simply resides elsewhere, and has to happen naturally rather than be chased (I'm not sure about that last part - it may be that people who seek faith find it, but I doubt they're only looking with their brains, however big and lovely their brains may be, as yours most certainly seems).

Mmm...brain...

I didn't mean to suggest that faith can or should be arrived at by intellectual effort. What I meant that faith is cannot generally be proven to the satisfaction of anyone without faith using logical methods.

Deductive logic demonstrates truth by necessity; that is, if properly constructed, the conclusion of the chain of true premises simply must be true. However, it is quite possible to construct a perfectly valid argument with an entirely false conclusion (e.g. "All men are purple; I am a man; therefore, I am purple."). Thus if you don't buy the first premise of a given faith (such as "God exists") you may find the the argument to be valid but false.

Augustine famously exhorted Christians to "believe that you may understand." Belief came first, and was then girded by argument and logic. In fact, Augustine believed that man was so wholly dependent upon God that the very act of believing was only possibly through a movement of divine Grace (something "J" alluded to in the first comment).

BTW--when I wrote, "...we have neglected to build a foundation in metaphysics within the educational system," I meant public educational system.

There's no need to wait until post-high school to learn how to think.

Well, I did go to a state college, not some highfalutin' Harvard (no offense to Harvardians; one must have an example to pick on).

I suppose the whole idea of proving one's faith (or convincing someone else they ought to share in it) is alien to me. But I have the luxury of considering that alien because I am not experiencing faith as part of a specific group-organized-religion. If one perceives the truth through a very specific lens and that lens requires belief in said lens and said lens only...

Sorry, all those lenses are getting confusing - what am I, an optometrist? But you know what I mean - it's the concept of one truth and one truth only that trips everybody up - and before you go getting upset at the relativist sound of that, let me clarify. What I mean is that the trappings of that truth, and the way in which individuals (and various groups) arrive at the perception/experience of it, can vary widely without the essence of it being much different.

I refer, of course, to the similar kernels at the heart of so many Big Religions, and contained within the musings of so many philosophers. That Descartes, for example, should arrive at his Big Epiphany, which ends up to be pretty much the same as one of Aristotle's first principles, seems about par for the course. It doesn't negate Descartes' epiphany; it just means that each was looking at a different facet of the same thing (or in their cases, the same facet of the same thing).

re: "...There's no need to wait until post-high school to learn how to think", well, right, and a couple things here...

First, as a current culture, do we really, publicly and largely consider these metaphysical issues? Nahh. Blasphemous to the dogma-dogged, unreachable to many others. For some reason (no pun) this society we've arranged and/or been thrust into just remains either too interested in distraction from these very essential explorations of existance/mind/life/death, or incapable of accessing and maintaining the vast uncertainty and intellectual insecurity required for any lengthy attempts at crossing the divides. We want our Playstations, our Paxils, our Pirates of The Carribean. We're of course trained by billions in marketing dollaRS to want these things, too. They're just easier than the work required to dig at existential dirt. And to what end? Dirty fingernails. "Advanced" techno-culture breeds a special laziness? Maybe yes.

Relative to metaphysical discourses and course offerings in early public ed, one might argue that until one experiences sufficient trauma, self/self-doubt and dead ends in the maze, one is not even aware such questions and subjects for exploration exist. Or, such subjects remain as foreign currency. Without seeing or knowing of the depths, exploring the depths ain't possible. And it's a rare fish that knows he swims in water anyway. So as one ages and experiences more questions, one is drawn (or not) to seek intellectually to discern the nature of what one experiences on the levels we sense. Maturity doesn't happen at 8 PM EST for everyone but time in the saddle does encourage more examination.

I for one would argue that infusion of such wide metaphysical discourse at an earlier age would foster at least the sysnapse firings that could potentially be re-examined later on, if not earlier on. But that may be because I experienced the BIG PROFOUND QUESTIONS early on - who is God, and all that by age 4, and have always been on some path of exploration. I think therefore everyone should think as I so I am liked by myself. Is there a larger more interesting question than WHO AM I and WHERE DID I COME FROM?

Yes. "What's for dinner?"

We're thinking of having pork spare ribs, Andrea. I had to do "who am I" and "where did I come from" first, though.

Paulie - look inside the neck of your shirt. If you are lucky, mummie might have sewn a name tag in there. As for "where did I come from", well one day you will understand this so much better, but about 9 months before you were born, your daddie really wanted to show your mummie how much he loved her ....

I'd say the next big question is WHY AM I HERE?

I'm here because Andrea posted a link to this discussion...

Hey! We're trying to have a Meaningful Discussion(TM), here!

OK.

I was thinking of some reasonable arguments to make in case things I was discussing with my girlfriend veered in a scary, absolutist direction (luckily this did not happen, and the problems we were having that started me looking for this stuff on the web is resolved), and I came up with this one.

99.999% of all capital "C" Christians have Christmas trees at Christmas. It's a pagan symbol, and in direct violation of the Mosaic law against idolatry (Thou shalt not have other gods before Me), as well as being in violation of Jesus' exhortation to "Love the Lord God with all your heart". Even the most fundamentalist churches will acknowledge and encourage the pagan ritual of having a tree. The church initially made Christmas conveniently placed during pagan holidy to make it more marketable.

Yet because it's cultural, the law, which so many of the most absolute disposition claim is 100% sacred and all-important, is disregarded.

Long story short, in the world of humans, there really are no absolutes. Even those most convinced of their own total rightness are subject to error within their own belief system. Thus, I prefer folks who acknowledge some weaknesses in their own beliefs, and so have the capacity to change, and improve.

FYI I am not beating up on Christians, as I am one (who by the way hasn't had a X-mas tree in 3 years but does fornicate and drink, as these are lesser sins and more fun), but I'm criticizing those of any belief who are excessive in their confidence of their own rightness.